You are having dinner with a friend, and he/she says to you: “So you’re an educator—what do you think about charter schools and vouchers? Are they a good idea?” What is your answer?
If I were out to dinner with a friend, and was asked about charter schools, I would have to carefully prepare my words, as I am very opinionated about one charter school in particular. When I think about charter schools, I think about Voyager. Voyager, a charter school here in Durham that currently serves 4th - 8th graders. I think about the number of white children that left fine elementary schools like Mangum and Little River, Easley and Hillandale to go to a place where they would be protected from the "thugs" that are at my school, Carrington, or a Brogden or Chewning. I think about parents that would send their academically gifted kids to a school where there is no AIG program (I still have AIG folders for kids that go to Voyager but no one has ever requested their files), where differentiation is where 95% of the students in their children's classes look like them. I think about the 3 autistic kids who tried Voyager and were "kicked out" because they were different, and who are now thriving at Carrington and Northern. I think about the star athlete at North Durham Little League who can't really play sports at their middle school because, "there's no competition." And I think about the member of the Board of Directors at Voyager whose daughter (autistic) chose to be "Goth" and her mother couldn't accept it, so she decided to join with others and form this school where basically, everyone is the same. This year, however, they ran into a little snag with their lottery situation. In the last couple of years, they've pulled some fast ones and were able to not have to include certain children that lived within their zoning area. NC state charter law says that,
"Preference for Enrollment Children of employees; in a charter's first year of operation the lesser of 10% or 20 slots may be reserved for children of founding members; for public conversions, students in attendance area of former public school (for private conversions, students enrolled prior may not be receive preference). After one year, charter school must reasonably reflect racial balance of district (or, if serving special population, must resemble the balance of that population in the district)." Oops!
This definitely is not true at Voyager. When it comes to teacher certification, NC state charter law says,
"Certification In elementary schools, 75% must be certified; in secondary schools, 50% must be certified."
What happened to being highly qualified? So, if I was out to dinner with a friend, and they'd ask about charter schools, I'd say that I think charter schools in their original intent, were created to give lower socio economic and at risk students choices about where their children went to school. According to the Education Commission of the States, "Charter schools sometimes segregate students along racial and class lines and fail to adequately serve students with disabilities or limited English proficiency." The last two years, Voyager hasn't made growth! What! No growth, yet you boast to being the best thing to happen to Durham County in a while!? So in my opinion, charter schools talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. And just like the 14 students we got back last year, to the 18 we've gotten back this year, we'll be right here, waiting for you when you want to come back to the real world.
Here's Voyager's Mission statement.
The mission of Voyager Academy is to provide students in grades four through eight an academically challenging environment in which motivated learners, working in a small, nurturing setting, may realize their potential through experiential and traditional educational opportunities. The school’s belief is that students, working with dedicated faculty and family, will excel in their academic goals and real world pursuits.
If I were out to dinner with a friend and was asked about vouchers, I wouldn't really have too much to say. I don't really have a problem with parents being given money to send their children to established private schools if their public school is not meeting their needs. I hate the thought of money being taken out of public schools for this reason though. In 1997, then Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley said that vouchers will drain badly needed public tax dollars into private and parochial schools. "If we are serious about strengthening our public schools, we need a sustained commitment to improve them -- to raise standards, to have accurate assessments linked to standards, and to adopt the strong accountability measures we've proposed but not try to solve a public school problem by abandoning public schools." (Education World) I think this is probably still true today. Camille
To be honest, I don’t know much about charter schools. I teach in a public high school. From what I‘ve been told, charter schools tend to be a lot smaller. I know that charter schools usually receive vouchers out of funds initially designated to public schools, but do not really think those funds significantly impact the performance at the public school level. I cannot really say whether or not I think charter schools or vouchers are a good idea. If I knew more about them, I could probably give you a more direct answer?
I, too am very opinionatedbut more about vouchers than charter schools. I am totally opposed to vouchers andI admit this is based on personal experience and bias, not research. When my daughter was in middle school she decided she wanted to go to a private boarding school. As a single momon a teacher's salary, I said "In your dreams but check it out." She pursued it and to make a long story short ended up with a 28K/yr scholarship to a prestigious all girl's school in W. MA. what we learned in the process was 1)a measly voucher wouldn't have got her more than tuition in one of the many questionable new schools and 2) the well-established private schools have great endowments and a commitment to diversity.
I choose to send a little money each year to that school, as does my daughter, adding to their endowment, but IMO, if parents choose to send their kids to a private school,it's fine by me, but the money shouldn't be taken out of the public coffers.
Like James, I do not feel well versed in this area, especially when it comes to school vouchers. (Perhaps as I prepare for Saturday's class I will learn more.) When we are speaking of vouchers, I have heard this term used in two ways. The first way is when a school does not meet testing requirements and parents at that school are allowed to choose another school meeting expectations in the district, at the district's expense. The second way I have heard the term "voucher" used is when a student attends a failing school and is then given a monetary voucher to use towards tuition at a private school or to attend an out of district school at the taxpayer's expense. I presume the second way is what we are discussing, but I would value clarification.
(Change the subject) Wow! isn't this French onion soup at the Angus Barn delicous? No, seriously, charter schools typically lack the resources that public schools have because they are not federally/state funded. Charter schools due tend to offer more personal choices, in terms of the curriculum, for students to pursue or that the parents want to see their child take.
Vouchers are a good idea theoretically, however, these schools tend to be private. Because of this, these schools may be more discriminitory regarding their student population instead of accepting anyone as does a public school. Private schools receive less oversight and may be apt to "do their own thing" versus a public school that is held accountable to a specific set of standards.
While I'm biased towards traditional public schools, I am in favor of school choice. Our country is failing to prepare many children for the future. Large, traditional public schools are not providing enough opportunities for many less fortunate children to overcome their personal obstacles. The charter school movement, while not perfect, provides innovation and alternatives for kids who need a smaller setting, unique scheduling, or a diverse curriculum. For instance, the KIPP school in Gaston recently had 48 of 48 graduates move on to four-year colleges. A school in Washington, D.C. provides flexible schedules for young mothers. These schools are serving students who may not have been successful in a traditional high school. While my personal politics are inconsistent with many who favor school choice, I do see the importance of competition in education. There is not enough accountability in education. As we discussed in the previous class, bad tenured teachers keep jobs. Charter schools push limits and may help to place pressure on decision makers. We need to find new ways to educate children and encourage the smartest and most driven people to enter the field of education.
For clarification, a voucher is when the per-pupil public school expenditure follows a student to the school of his parents' choice. For example, if district X spends $6000 per student (including federal, state, and local funds), and an approved voucher program is in place in the state, then parents can choose to send their child to a private school and the $6000 that would have gone to the public schools now goes to the private school.
The money piece is similar with charter schools (i.e., money follows the student to the charter school), but charter schools are technically public schools, not private.
Like Briana and James, I do not know enough about charter and voucher schools to give an opinion. I have a few friends that pulled their children out of Public school and placed them in Voyagers. In my relationship with them, I know them to be high achieving students and most of the parents have advanced/doctorate degrees and are very supportive of their childrens' education. In general conversations with them in the past, they were discouraged with the distractions and lack of structure in public schools.
I would say that charter schools and vouchers are good, in the sense that they give parents more choice and options in educating their kids. More choice is always good.
Thanks on the clarification about vouchers. I like the idea. The practice of it seems to be an issue...
However, I have seen some great charter schools. My wife and I worked with some KIPP schools in Atlanta and KIPP Gaston Prep near Warren county has got some great results. People are lined up trying to get their kids in there.
So, I am all for whatever gets kids educated and gets them choice as in what's best for them!
I would tell my friend that I really do not know much about charter schools. I do not know any families that have students currently in charter schools. I know that charter schools give parents an alternative to public schools and that charter schools are not allowed to charge tuition. Charter schools are not governed by some of rules and regulations of public schools. Charter schools are governed by what the schools charter says it will do. Like any other school public or private, I would advise my friend to research the school and make the best school choice based on their child’s needs. I would also tell my friend that I think school vouchers are vouchers of money given to parents so they can pay for a school of their choice if they choose not to go to the public school to which they are assigned. I think the school has to be low performing or not make adequate growth. I would plead with my friend do research on charter schools if this is something that he/she is interested in. I would also volunteer to help with the research.
I agree with Karen concerning charter schools. My recommendation would be to gather research on a couple of charter schools within the district of their residence. The research should at least include the following information: (1) organizational leadership and structure, (2) funding stability, (3) academic achievement record of accomplishment, (4) faculty credentials, school climate, (5) technological resources available for classroom instruction, (6) level of parental involvement, and (7) reputation in the community. A perfect example of a school that is highly regarded is the Franklin Academic located in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Please click on this link for additional information http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/achievement/nc/195
I agree with Hassan concerning vouchers. If a public school is failing to provide an adequate education for students on a consistent basis (three consecutive years), parents and students should be given an opportunity to attend another school without having to incur any expense. Some parents are more astute on the procedures for obtaining vouchers than others, therefore; their children may receive a private school education with taxpayer’s money. Parents and students that are unaware of the requirements and procedures for obtaining vouchers will remain in failing schools. Thus, students continue suffering from additional years of inadequate teaching and learning.
In response to Dr. Graham’s clarification on vouchers, I would tend to lean towards providing parents the opportunity to choose what school their child attends. I know this can get a little complicated, especially when dealing with districting issues. But if I lived in a neighborhood that had an elementary, middle, or high school with a bad academic reputation, and if I had a choice to send my son or daughter to a smaller/charter school, I would not have an problems with the money following my child’s education.
I would like to go back to what Maurice said about some parents being more astute at obtaining resources than others. Another factor with charter schools is transportation. There is no bussing, except the city buses, making the charter school inaccessible to some. While I'm all for school choice I do not believe we should be funding those that already have more resources than some of the neediest.
It does remove some of the 'talent' from our public schools and since schools are funded by enrolment and attendance, it affects funding. But then I think it's crazy the way we fund schools.
I would tell my friend that if he/she wants a better school for her/his child they shoulc get involved in their neighborhood school and make it happen there.
“So you’re an educator—what do you think about charter schools and vouchers? Are they a good idea?”
I don't know if charter schools and vouchers are a good idea or not. That is something that I feel will be proven in time. I'm sure there is already data both support and refute the success of both.
That said, like many of my classmates have already stated, I do think CHOICE is a good idea. The risk we need to be aware of though is the possibility of unintended homoginization of our schools. While choice is good, I like diversity even more.
I do have this question about vouchers. If parents choose to enroll their kid in a private school, do they have to pay the private school tuition if a voucher is used? If so, then my question would be...why?
I believe the biggest advantage for a voucher or charter school is that they provide a choice for parents and students to pick an environment where they feel they can be successful. The biggest factor in student achievement is student motivation. The second factor is parental involvement. If the ability to choose one's school creates a higher level of student motivation and parental involvement then I am all for school vouchers. Public schools play the same game as private schools by publishing test scores and basically comparing schools in a competitive manner. If public education is the best thing going then all public schools in theory should provide the same educational opportunities. It should not make a difference where you go to school and neighborhood schools could return to places like Wake county. We need to either insure equity and and equal access to quality educational opportunities for all students in all schools or blow the system up and start over. Let's close the public schools and give every student the same amount of money to spend on education. Will that create equal schools? Will poor kids have a better chance to succeed? How much money guarantees a quality education?
In response to Camille's post on Voyager Academy, I responded to anyone who asked my opinion that Voyager was being created "so white students in Treyburn and Hardscrabble would not have to go to middle school with minority students". This may seem like a very strong statement but I have a difficult time trying to understand how students who live in the two most affluent neighborhoods in northern Durham county are being under served and neglected in their educational opportunities when the traditional middle school they would be attending is one of the highest performing and most diverse schools in the district. Furthermore, the school's original location was outside the city limits which discouraged lower income families who depend on public transportation from entering the lottery, once the lottery was complete the board announced that they had acquired a better location in the city that happened to be next door sevaral minority neighborhoods and a public housing project.
To be honest, all I know about charter schools comes from what I've heard other people discussing about these schools. Therefore my knowledge of these schools is limited and possibly wrong. So if a friend invited me out to dinner and asked me that question, I would have to be completely honest about what I know and how I know it. I would say from what I heard charter schools are smaller schools that cater to students whose parents think that they will be better served in a smaller school setting. I know that these schools are funded by vouchers given out by the government. I also say that I think these schools sometime offer students a better education because the teacher does not have so many students to teach and can give students more individual time. I would say that I think charter schools do not have as many limitations on them as public schools as far as curriculum instruction is concerned, which I’m not sure is good or bad. I would also say that I have heard that charter schools are much safer because they are smaller and often time students have to wear uniforms cutting back on the amount of student to student teasing. I would include that there are some really well to do charter schools that cater to wealthy children and there are some charter schools that cater to poverty income students who have to have vouchers in order to attend school. As far as the government funding these schools, I would say that I think it is a good idea as long as it is not taking away a significant amount of funding from public schools. After I end the conversation with my friend, I would go to the internet and find out a bit more information on charter schools, so the next time the conversation arises, I will be more prepared (lol).
I would have to agree with all the other bloggers that feel that charters schools are good because they give parents and students a choice to learn in a preferred environment where they think they will be best suited. I really would like to visit a charter school to see how they operate and how they compare and contrast to public schools to see if there is a big difference in the actual curriculum that is being taught.
I worked in a charter school in Draper, Utah before coming to Durham. My experience there was very positive, and in fact, I strive to duplicate many of the things I learned in that school in my own classroom. The growth students showed during their time at this school was amazing, and was not limited to the "gifted" students. In fact, I had two autistic children in my class, who grew by leaps and bounds during their time at this particular school. Their methodologies were research based, and their expectations of staff were beyond anything I have ever experienced. Because of this, I would recommend to anyone that they research charter schools in their areas and make the choice based on what is best for them.
While I understand that not ALL charter schools are doing good things, I believe that we all deserve a CHOICE about where we send our children to school. I know that there are charter schools out their that are doing things "better" than our public schools (and for everyone that believes these schools are only for the "gifted" or "majority" students, KIPP schools are a great example of charter schools that are doing great things for minority students). If I were a parent, I would want the best education for my students, and I truly believe that there are charter schools out there capable of providing a better education than some of our public schools.
In terms of the voucher/charter school debate, I would have to say that I am not well enough informed, and therefore my opinion should not represent that of all educators.
I think it all depends. Like Abbey said, there are some charter schools with an excellent reputation, and then some with a not so good reputation. I think we should carefully evaluate all schools (public/private/charter...)using a critical lens as to what is right for a particular student. All schools should be held accountable for student learning, so long as the support is there so that they can be successful.
Some would argue (and maybe not entirely incorrectly) that the charter and voucher school movement -- i.e., the "school choice" movement -- is a sleuth attempt to undermine public schools and begin to privatize the K-12 education system.
Would you support public tax money, in the form of education vouchers, following students to private religious schools? Would you support a wealthy family being able to receive an education voucher to help offset the cost of an expensive ($25,000 per year) private school that they can already afford?
I would tell my friend that I am not a really a fan of charter schools. I would explain it by comparing them to the National Guard (hope I don’t offend any guardsmen/women) but is the National Guard better than the “real” Army? If America was under attack, which would you want to defend the nation, the Army, you know the guys who do more before six am than most folks do all day or the National Guard, this is the same guy who likes to play “Weekend Warrior” once a month but the rest of the time he teaches 7th grade language arts across the hall from you! The public schools are like the Marines; yeah sure they have a few friendly fire casualties and get off mission sometime but bottom line, their sole purpose is to kill and they have been doing it a long time. In the public schools case, their bottom line is education and they too have been doing it a long time.
The problem is that the issues with public education will not go away. The American education system is not making the grade when it comes to educating ALL students. We have the brightest minds studying and researching the problems and potential solutions. However, we still have not found the quick fix to education where a parent can place their child in a school regardless of race, income, and motivation and the child "perform" academically. We have found some solutions that attempt to address the problems that exist within public schools such as charters and the voucher programs. There are even schools that are completely computer based where there is no teacher in the classroom and students learn everything on the computer at their on pace. These are all very creative and interesting solutions. The question is how successful these creative solutions are when it comes to "educating" students. The answer is that it depends on who you ask and which school you are talking about. There are so many charters schools springing up all over the place with different purposes. The charter school I worked for was inside a jail and the goal was to teach basic skills to prepare them for their next educational journey that could be a GED in prison for some. There was no graduation or EOG that they were expected to pass at the end of the year unless they were released back to a regular outside public school. The point is that not all charter schools have the same purpose or exist for the same populations. Therefore, it is difficult to form an overall opinion of all charter schools based on individual experiences especially with such limited data available on the success of many of the schools. I agree with Justin that it all depends on the charter school we are talking about. There are advantages and disadvantages to any option whether it is public, charter, private, or home school (which I recommend for overbearing parentsJ. Charter schools and vouchers are simply options for parents to navigate through the difficult stage of providing the best education (in their opinion) for their child I think that parents should have the right to have this choice about how their child should be educated. The issue becomes should these choices be funded by public tax money. I think that funding education for the wealthy in the form of vouchers for private education is a bad idea and would further contribute to some our complex societal problems in education and otherwise.
I personally would not support public tax money following students to private institutions. I think there is a huge advantage to religous schools, and I think this due to my own religious beliefs. If it is "public" tax money, then I feel it should go to "public" education.
Separation of church and state has been around for a very long time. Should this separation not apply to the government giving tax dollars to religous organizations or religious schools?
"The public schools are like the Marines; yeah sure they have a few friendly fire casualties and get off mission sometime but bottom line, their sole purpose is to kill and they have been doing it a long time."
Really Ryan? I would argue that the reason that the school choice movement even exists is that public schools have done such a good job of "killing" education. But what do I know; I did go through public school, which means my opinion probably should not even be taken seriously:).
In response to Dr. G's last question, how do you decide the dollar amounts of the vouchers? How do you decide the income level that would require a voucher? What's wrong with helping people who choose to use their voucher for a parochial school. According to one of the studies in tomorrow's readings, parochial schools out performed public schools on 4th and 8th grade tests( Catholic and Lutheran schools). If the school is effective in improving and/or maintaining high student achievement then let's help all kids who want to attend those schools do so.
Two comments...first, I am absolutely, unequivocally, opposed to public money going to private schools. I am also opposed to providing transportation to charter or magnet schools. If you don't want your child to attend the neighborhood school, fine, but you need to figure out how to get them there and not at taxpayer expense.
2nd, I've subbed quite a bit at Kestral Heights Charter (and did my bookkeeper interview there - so I understand the funding a little better, now - it's not vouchers, they get a per student funding formula similar to the regular public schools).
They also have the same EOC requirements that every other public school has and the non-discriminatory regulations. I would say they have a higher number of identified EC kids, in part because parents didn't like the way their kids were served in the 'public schools'. The biggest difference is that they have a greater level of parent involvement. The parents are already invested in that they have to get their kids to and from school. Ironically (or not surprisingly), the kids they have the most problems with are the ones who show up on the city bus and whose parents have little contact with the school.
On the whole, the kids are respectful, responsive and less time is spent on discipline. Academic expectations are high and the kids are engaged. As a sub I actually had lesson plans to teach, instead of movies and worksheets. The drawback is lower pay but a much less stressful day.
Amatullah, look at charter schools like the Blackwater of education. Not saying they can't get the job done...they can! This is probably because they have stolen some of the best and brightest from the public schools by tempting them with promises of teacher empowerment and small learning communities, may be even higher pay and better working conditions...who knows. But if public schools wanted to they could do the same things, better even because nobody could ever compete with their resources.
I love the idea of competition. It does not scare me as a public educator to have people think about choices. But I do think that the voucher idea is a bad idea because whenever you throw around money, there will be corruption. Just like absolute power corrupts absolutely, money corrupts education and the kids end up losing.
However, I would also inform my friend that charter schools were created as an innovative alternative to the public education system and despite there being little evidence that support that charter schools are any more innovative than public ones, charter schools can fill a void in an area where the public schools are tragically underperforming or plagued with poor leadership. People should have the right to educate their children however they want but they shouldn’t get a voucher either. And I don’t want hear about where your tax dollars are going toward an education you don’t want…I don’t even have kids and they still take money from my check for education. The education of the youth is, as cheesy as it sounds an investment into this country’s future; therefore, everybody pays for it. So everybody pays for the education for the masses and if that’s not good enough, and it may not be, then you may need to fork over a little more money to kick out for the charter school but no money back.
In terms of Dr. G's last comments, I think that if there were to be a voucher movement, then the amount of the voucher should somehow be dependent on the parent's income if they are going to an expensive private school.
However, I was thinking about what makes some charter schools effective? Are the systems that are in place in charter schools vastly different from those in public schools? I wonder if the success of charter schools is driven more by smaller school sizes as opposed to some reform initiative that the school is running under.
In terms of the funding that is taken away from public schools if there are vouchers. How does this work. Is it straight up $$ taken from a public school if a student chooses to go to a charter or private school with a voucher, or is it something that affects the allotment. If it affects allotments, then the impact on the public school may be reduced. Losing one child is unlikely to drastically affect allotments, however a dollar loss of around $6,000 I would imagine would have significant impact.
In response to Dr. G’s question, I think that if the parents wanted to use their voucher money for a religious school then that’s their choice. These parents are opting not to put their children in public schools. They pay taxes so let them have their education voucher! I have the same opinion about the wealthy families. They should have the option to use the education voucher to offset their cost to an expensive private school. I think families rich, poor, or middle class should have a choice. They are opting not to put their children in public schools. Nevertheless, these people are paying their taxes! (Hopefully!!!)
I believe that charter schools are a good thing. During my undergraduate, I did volunteer work for a charter school, and everything that I saw was very positive. A friend of mine also worked at Endeavor Charter School in Wake County, and everything that she told me was amazing…the things that they have the opportunity to do with their children, it’s just unreal. One of the founders of the school was a friend of hers, too, and she was in on starting the school. Their mission and vision statements are right on to what they provide to those children. Their scores are phenomenal, and the parents are happy. They do their enrollment strictly by the lottery—if there are teachers’ kids that applied and didn’t get in, then too bad, there were not any exceptions. It’s actually an amazing learning environment for those children.
I agree with Tom when he said that having a choice is good. Amatullah is right when she says the problems in education are not going away. Therefore, it is healthy to give parents a choice.
If the schools surrounding where you live are underperforming, why should we expect parents to send their students to these schools? If parents want the choice of sending their child to a private school, yes they should get the $6,000 to apply towards the tuition, regardless if they can afford it or not. Each child is guaranteed a public education, and if their parents choose a different route then they should be awarded the money that goes with it.
In the grand scheme of things, I do not believe that charter schools or vouchers are trying to undermine the public schools. I believe that charter schools offer something that public schools do not have the opportunity to do. Once again, it all goes back to choice. If you think you can get your child a better education somewhere else, you are going to do whatever you can to provide that for them.
Benjy, I do not follow you when you say that "there will be corruption." What does that have to do with school vouchers? I understand your point on competition, but can you explain your corruption theory?
By the way if anyone wants to see what a charter school looks like here is a link to the video that aired on wral the other day. I interviewed with these guys a couple of years ago and turned down a job there because I did not want to drive that far to teach. I imagine that we all could do some amazing things with students who have applied to go there, have an average of 19 students in a classroom and have quite a large budget to purchase things with. I must tell you that I turned down the job offer not just because of the drive but they talked about the school like it was a cult. Maybe if it was closer I could speak a little more from a first hand experience but I have to agree with some of the other comments. Stealing the best and brightest students in North Carolina should not be something to brag about. It is basically a mini-college campus.
The corruption idea is the fact that with money comes an extra set of problems that could take away from others. I could forsee group homes saying that they do not like their base school and asking for the voucher money to send their kids to private school and then find the easiest, cheapest private school to skate the system. I am telling you as sure as I can, vouchers would screw up due to some of the people's selfish nature. If they were truly trying to get the best education then I would say that it might work but government money and taxes used to make choices is a bad idea. If you want to make the choice go for it, just don't make me pay for your choice. There is definitely a trade off with private schools, charter schools and homeschooling options. I have no problem with the choice. But as I said before, I don't want to pay for your choice. That is the main idea behind my corruption comment.
I would tell my friend that I don’t have much knowledge of charter schools. The few that I do know about do not have good reputations, which may be because of bad new traveling faster than good news. As for the vouchers, I do not like the idea that anyone can receive them. One should not be able to receive a voucher just because they are not pleased with the school they have been assigned. There should be a certain criteria that must be met before receiving a voucher, such as the student’s academic achievement. Those students that fail to pass the EOG/EOC should be allowed to receive the vouchers. The students that pass the EOG/EOC should not be able to receive vouchers, because they have achieved the state’s academic standards. Why should tax payer money pay for a student to attend a private or religious school, when the student is achieving academic success in public school? Now if the public school fails to educate the student in a way that they are able to pass the EOG/EOC, then pay for them to go else where. There would be one catch that if the student did not pass the EOG/EOC they would not be able to continue to receive the voucher. With all that said, I am assuming that vouchers are not issued out only once.
To answer Dr. Graham's question, no I would not support vouchers for religious schools or children of wealthy people. I think vouchers should only be given to low income families or families who make under 20,000 a year. Even then, there should be a limit to how many full scholarship vouchers are awarded. All other people who are able to pay for charter schools should pay full price or at least a prencentage of the tuition as they have the means to do so. Also alternative education is a choice not a must have, therefore if you want the best, you have to pay for the best. However, you also have to make things fair and equitable, therefore, you have to create funding for some of the less fortunate.
Benjy, it’s not like they issue you a check for $6,000. They money goes directly to the school, and you don’t get to keep what you do not use for tuition. (And, if you can find a private school that offers tuition for LESS than $6,000 a year, let me know.)
And, how can you NOT be paying for people's choice? I pay for education through taxes, and I don't have children. Inadvertently, I am paying for people's choice to provide that education for their children. How does that affect you directly?
I guess I understand and somewhat appreciate the point of Karen's post: if parents pay taxes at least let them have the money they pay to put toward their child's private education. Somebody also mentioned that the size of the voucher should be dependent upon family income: that could work. I think it was in the debate article that maybe there could be a tax break for parents who send their children to private schools, another good idea. I know I look forward to the tax-break I get by giving UNC-Chapel Hill ~5 G's a year.
Choice is relevant and understandable, especially for a parent who does not want to send their child to the "struggling" school. From my experience, parents making that choice means financial sacrifices for their family, but I still feel it shouldn't necessarily place the financial burden on the taxpayer.
The charter school movement could potentially impact NC in a large way. NC's chances of earning Race to the Top money could be hampered by the state's current restrictions. The state has a limit on approved charters (100) and district limits (maximum of 5 per district). Because of the current state of education, the federal government is encouraging states to attempt new education models (charter schools in some cases). NC's stance on charter schools may negatively impact all students.
With clarification of the voucher system, my biggest questions becomes, do vouchers equalize education to ensure that all students have the high quality education that they deserve. Should a school be labeled as a "low performing school," the school would be required to offer vouchers. Of the student body, which families would be informed of the vouchers and would know how to apply and make the best choices regarding vouchers. My fear with vouchers is that the vouchers will allow already entitled students, those more likely to succeed despite a challenging school, to have even more opportunities. I do not mean to imply that parents of non proficient students are not able to take advantage of a voucher system. However, I do worry that a low performing school would "voucher out" all but the students who need a better school more than the others. I absolutely believe that a voucher system should be encouraged as it allows under served students a change at an education that they are not getting. However, I am not sure how the system can ensure that the students most in need of a "new school" are able to take advantage of the voucher system. Without the students who are currently being failed being able to take advantage of the voucher system, I believe that other students will leave a low performing school leaving it worse off than before, with the students most in need of help being left without any additional supports or a new school.
A parent’s socioeconomic status should not be considered when issuing out vouchers only if public education was tried first and the student did not achieve academic success. Yes they are paying there taxes but we all are paying taxes and a percentage of my money is going towards that wealthy family child’s public education as well. So if the wealthy family decides to never send their child to public school, then they should pay for it without any governmental assistance.
(Karen) It is also like if I decided to never drive on the highway. Should I receive a voucher to off set the cost of other means of transportation not using the highway since I am no longer driving? I am paying my taxes.
(Justin) A dollar loss of $6,000 would not be that significant. It is actually less than 1% of the Wake Co. Schools budget. In 2004-2005 Wake Co. Schools budget was over 1 billion dollars. The per pupil budget was $7,538.00 during the 04-05 school year. If you multiply that by 135,000 students you would get over a billion dollar.
(Briana) Every student in a low performing school is not low performing. I would not allow all of the students the opportunity to receive the voucher. Only the families of students that are low performing (did not pass EOG/EOC) would be able to receive the vouchers. That would address your fear of the entitled students receiving more opportunities. What do you think about that?
I think that a parent should be able to choose where their child will get the best education. If that means using a voucher to get them into a private religious school, then so be it. Parents and students should not be punished for the fact that many public schools aren't doing an adequate job of schooling our children. I know, and understand, that parents pulling "entitled" or "gifted" students from low performing schools could be problematic. The question remains, if I were a parent, and my student was attending a low performing school, what would I want for my son or daughter? I'd want them to have the best education possible. Vouchers and charter schools give parents other options.
Briana, you wrote, "However, I do worry that a low performing school would "voucher out" all but the students who need a better school more than the others." I agree with you...this is a discussion I've had with colleagues. But I almost wonder if there could be a positive spin on that? (totally thinking out of the box here...). Perhaps a smaller student to teacher ratio and a focus on those students that need the most help would allow those schools to rid themselves of that low performing status? I know this is not likely, but if I were a leader of a school in such a situation, I know I'd start to think of ways we could better serve our smaller school population and meet their more specific needs.
Where is the equity in education? I believe in choice, but, I am leaning towards the idea that voucher schools may be just another segretation tactic of the haves and the have-nots. I think I would have to tell my friend to research and compare the options.
Rick said Simliar to James worland Briana, I am not that astute in the world of vouchers and charter school. However, I do believe that everyone is entitled to freedom of choice, but to what and/or to whom's expense. Unfortunately, competiton produces strange and difference agendas, which academic acheivement is done as an attempt to appease the fed rather than the parents.
I would say that I support “choice.” I think that vouchers and charter schools are a good thing. I too feel that if the public school is not meeting the educational needs of my children then I should have a choice as to where they will attend school to receive the best education.
I am not very knowledgeable about how the voucher system works but I have heard some things about charter schools and how they may or may not have met the community’s expectations. Most of what I have heard has been positive for charter schools.
I personally would not support public funds in the form of education vouchers following students to private religious schools. To me that is a whole separation of church and state issue and I don't want to get anywhere near that debate.
As for a wealthy family receiving a voucher to send their kid to a private school that they can already afford...I'm not a fan of that either. I feel that their should be a tier system based on financial need to determine what amount, up to $5,000 a family would receive.
I like Lamont's comment about kids at low performing schools that actually make the grade academically NOT receiving a voucher. That seems equitable to me.
Not sure I agree with public tax money being used to fund private religious schools. As Michael stated, separation of church and state has been around for a long time. As far as who receives an education voucher, I think anyone who qualifies for the voucher should receive it regardless of “wealth or lack of wealth” status.
I would tell them that charter schools are good for some kids, but for others they are not. That is with everything in life, it's good for somebody, but for somebody else it's not.
To add to my previous comment I am for "Choice." Every child is different as are adults. I think the problem with eucation is that we are trying to meet the needs of every child with a system that has shown an excess amount of flaws. If the status quo doesn't work, allow them to do something else.
I would support public voucher money going to whatever school the parents choose for their child, whether religious, private, etc. I say this especially since many public schools just have not been getting the job done for some kids. For instance, many students in Halifax county (under DPI's watch and on Judge Manning's List) have had he choice to come to Warren county schools since halifax was low performing and facing state take over. In reality, Warren county schools and other county systems in the area don't seem far from the same situation and parents need choice other than the public schools. Again, i say it's all about choice...what works best for the specific kid.
Rick Charter schools and vouchers are symptomatic of our country's demeanor and personality. We (America)were founded on the premise of freedom of choice, and charter schools and vouchers are the lineage of that freedom performed by our forfathers centuries ago. One point that is often missed is when you make a choice for one thing, you ultimately diminish another. So, where there is choice, there is also deprivation. The establishment of charter schools and vouchers will turn a choice into a derprivation, with regards to our public school system.
If I were out to dinner with a friend, and was asked about charter schools, I would have to carefully prepare my words, as I am very opinionated about one charter school in particular. When I think about charter schools, I think about Voyager. Voyager, a charter school here in Durham that currently serves 4th - 8th graders. I think about the number of white children that left fine elementary schools like Mangum and Little River, Easley and Hillandale to go to a place where they would be protected from the "thugs" that are at my school, Carrington, or a Brogden or Chewning. I think about parents that would send their academically gifted kids to a school where there is no AIG program (I still have AIG folders for kids that go to Voyager but no one has ever requested their files), where differentiation is where 95% of the students in their children's classes look like them. I think about the 3 autistic kids who tried Voyager and were "kicked out" because they were different, and who are now thriving at Carrington and Northern. I think about the star athlete at North Durham Little League who can't really play sports at their middle school because, "there's no competition." And I think about the member of the Board of Directors at Voyager whose daughter (autistic) chose to be "Goth" and her mother couldn't accept it, so she decided to join with others and form this school where basically, everyone is the same. This year, however, they ran into a little snag with their lottery situation. In the last couple of years, they've pulled some fast ones and were able to not have to include certain children that lived within their zoning area. NC state charter law says that,
ReplyDelete"Preference for Enrollment Children of employees; in a charter's first year of operation the lesser of 10% or 20 slots may be reserved for children of founding members; for public conversions, students in attendance area of former public school (for private conversions, students enrolled prior may not be receive preference). After one year, charter school must reasonably reflect racial balance of district (or, if serving special population, must resemble the balance of that population in the district)." Oops!
This definitely is not true at Voyager. When it comes to teacher certification, NC state charter law says,
"Certification In elementary schools, 75% must be certified; in secondary schools, 50% must be certified."
What happened to being highly qualified? So, if I was out to dinner with a friend, and they'd ask about charter schools, I'd say that I think charter schools in their original intent, were created to give lower socio economic and at risk students choices about where their children went to school. According to the Education Commission of the States, "Charter schools sometimes segregate students along racial and class lines and fail to adequately serve students with disabilities or limited English proficiency." The last two years, Voyager hasn't made growth! What! No growth, yet you boast to being the best thing to happen to Durham County in a while!? So in my opinion, charter schools talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. And just like the 14 students we got back last year, to the 18 we've gotten back this year, we'll be right here, waiting for you when you want to come back to the real world.
Here's Voyager's Mission statement.
The mission of Voyager Academy is to provide students in grades four through eight an academically challenging environment in which motivated learners, working in a small, nurturing setting, may realize their potential through experiential and traditional educational opportunities. The school’s belief is that students, working with dedicated faculty and family, will excel in their academic goals and real world pursuits.
If I were out to dinner with a friend and was asked about vouchers, I wouldn't really have too much to say. I don't really have a problem with parents being given money to send their children to established private schools if their public school is not meeting their needs. I hate the thought of money being taken out of public schools for this reason though. In 1997, then Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley said that vouchers will drain badly needed public tax dollars into private and parochial schools. "If we are serious about strengthening our public schools, we need a sustained commitment to improve them -- to raise standards, to have accurate assessments linked to standards, and to adopt the strong accountability measures we've proposed but not try to solve a public school problem by abandoning public schools." (Education World) I think this is probably still true today. Camille
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I don’t know much about charter schools. I teach in a public high school. From what I‘ve been told, charter schools tend to be a lot smaller. I know that charter schools usually receive vouchers out of funds initially designated to public schools, but do not really think those funds significantly impact the performance at the public school level. I cannot really say whether or not I think charter schools or vouchers are a good idea. If I knew more about them, I could probably give you a more direct answer?
ReplyDeleteI, too am very opinionatedbut more about vouchers than charter schools. I am totally opposed to vouchers andI admit this is based on personal experience and bias, not research. When my daughter was in middle school she decided she wanted to go to a private boarding school. As a single momon a teacher's salary, I said "In your dreams but check it out." She pursued it and to make a long story short ended up with a 28K/yr scholarship to a prestigious all girl's school in W. MA. what we learned in the process was 1)a measly voucher wouldn't have got her more than tuition in one of the many questionable new schools and 2) the well-established private schools have great endowments and a commitment to diversity.
ReplyDeleteI choose to send a little money each year to that school, as does my daughter, adding to their endowment, but IMO, if parents choose to send their kids to a private school,it's fine by me, but the money shouldn't be taken out of the public coffers.
Like James, I do not feel well versed in this area, especially when it comes to school vouchers. (Perhaps as I prepare for Saturday's class I will learn more.) When we are speaking of vouchers, I have heard this term used in two ways. The first way is when a school does not meet testing requirements and parents at that school are allowed to choose another school meeting expectations in the district, at the district's expense. The second way I have heard the term "voucher" used is when a student attends a failing school and is then given a monetary voucher to use towards tuition at a private school or to attend an out of district school at the taxpayer's expense. I presume the second way is what we are discussing, but I would value clarification.
ReplyDelete(Change the subject) Wow! isn't this French onion soup at the Angus Barn delicous? No, seriously, charter schools typically lack the resources that public schools have because they are not federally/state funded. Charter schools due tend to offer more personal choices, in terms of the curriculum, for students to pursue or that the parents want to see their child take.
ReplyDeleteVouchers are a good idea theoretically, however, these schools tend to be private. Because of this, these schools may be more discriminitory regarding their student population instead of accepting anyone as does a public school. Private schools receive less oversight and may be apt to "do their own thing" versus a public school that is held accountable to a specific set of standards.
While I'm biased towards traditional public schools, I am in favor of school choice. Our country is failing to prepare many children for the future. Large, traditional public schools are not providing enough opportunities for many less fortunate children to overcome their personal obstacles. The charter school movement, while not perfect, provides innovation and alternatives for kids who need a smaller setting, unique scheduling, or a diverse curriculum. For instance, the KIPP school in Gaston recently had 48 of 48 graduates move on to four-year colleges. A school in Washington, D.C. provides flexible schedules for young mothers. These schools are serving students who may not have been successful in a traditional high school.
ReplyDeleteWhile my personal politics are inconsistent with many who favor school choice, I do see the importance of competition in education. There is not enough accountability in education. As we discussed in the previous class, bad tenured teachers keep jobs. Charter schools push limits and may help to place pressure on decision makers. We need to find new ways to educate children and encourage the smartest and most driven people to enter the field of education.
For clarification, a voucher is when the per-pupil public school expenditure follows a student to the school of his parents' choice. For example, if district X spends $6000 per student (including federal, state, and local funds), and an approved voucher program is in place in the state, then parents can choose to send their child to a private school and the $6000 that would have gone to the public schools now goes to the private school.
ReplyDeleteThe money piece is similar with charter schools (i.e., money follows the student to the charter school), but charter schools are technically public schools, not private.
Dr. G
Like Briana and James, I do not know enough about charter and voucher schools to give an opinion. I have a few friends that pulled their children out of Public school and placed them in Voyagers. In my relationship with them, I know them to be high achieving students and most of the parents have advanced/doctorate degrees and are very supportive of their childrens' education. In general conversations with them in the past, they were discouraged with the distractions and lack of structure in public schools.
ReplyDeleteI would say that charter schools and vouchers are good, in the sense that they give parents more choice and options in educating their kids. More choice is always good.
ReplyDeleteThanks on the clarification about vouchers. I like the idea. The practice of it seems to be an issue...
However, I have seen some great charter schools. My wife and I worked with some KIPP schools in Atlanta and KIPP Gaston Prep near Warren county has got some great results. People are lined up trying to get their kids in there.
So, I am all for whatever gets kids educated and gets them choice as in what's best for them!
I would tell my friend that I really do not know much about charter schools. I do not know any families that have students currently in charter schools. I know that charter schools give parents an alternative to public schools and that charter schools are not allowed to charge tuition. Charter schools are not governed by some of rules and regulations of public schools. Charter schools are governed by what the schools charter says it will do. Like any other school public or private, I would advise my friend to research the school and make the best school choice based on their child’s needs. I would also tell my friend that I think school vouchers are vouchers of money given to parents so they can pay for a school of their choice if they choose not to go to the public school to which they are assigned. I think the school has to be low performing or not make adequate growth. I would plead with my friend do research on charter schools if this is something that he/she is interested in. I would also volunteer to help with the research.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Karen concerning charter schools. My recommendation would be to gather research on a couple of charter schools within the district of their residence. The research should at least include the following information: (1) organizational leadership and structure, (2) funding stability, (3) academic achievement record of accomplishment, (4) faculty credentials, school climate, (5) technological resources available for classroom instruction, (6) level of parental involvement, and (7) reputation in the community. A perfect example of a school that is highly regarded is the Franklin Academic located in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Please click on this link for additional information http://www.greatschools.net/modperl/achievement/nc/195
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hassan concerning vouchers. If a public school is failing to provide an adequate education for students on a consistent basis (three consecutive years), parents and students should be given an opportunity to attend another school without having to incur any expense. Some parents are more astute on the procedures for obtaining vouchers than others, therefore; their children may receive a private school education with taxpayer’s money. Parents and students that are unaware of the requirements and procedures for obtaining vouchers will remain in failing schools. Thus, students continue suffering from additional years of inadequate teaching and learning.
Maurice
In response to Dr. Graham’s clarification on vouchers, I would tend to lean towards providing parents the opportunity to choose what school their child attends. I know this can get a little complicated, especially when dealing with districting issues. But if I lived in a neighborhood that had an elementary, middle, or high school with a bad academic reputation, and if I had a choice to send my son or daughter to a smaller/charter school, I would not have an problems with the money following my child’s education.
ReplyDeleteI would like to go back to what Maurice said about some parents being more astute at obtaining resources than others. Another factor with charter schools is transportation. There is no bussing, except the city buses, making the charter school inaccessible to some. While I'm all for school choice I do not believe we should be funding those that already have more resources than some of the neediest.
ReplyDeleteIt does remove some of the 'talent' from our public schools and since schools are funded by enrolment and attendance, it affects funding. But then I think it's crazy the way we fund schools.
I would tell my friend that if he/she wants a better school for her/his child they shoulc get involved in their neighborhood school and make it happen there.
“So you’re an educator—what do you think about charter schools and vouchers? Are they a good idea?”
ReplyDeleteI don't know if charter schools and vouchers are a good idea or not. That is something that I feel will be proven in time. I'm sure there is already data both support and refute the success of both.
That said, like many of my classmates have already stated, I do think CHOICE is a good idea. The risk we need to be aware of though is the possibility of unintended homoginization of our schools. While choice is good, I like diversity even more.
I do have this question about vouchers. If parents choose to enroll their kid in a private school, do they have to pay the private school tuition if a voucher is used? If so, then my question would be...why?
I believe the biggest advantage for a voucher or charter school is that they provide a choice for parents and students to pick an environment where they feel they can be successful. The biggest factor in student achievement is student motivation. The second factor is parental involvement. If the ability to choose one's school creates a higher level of student motivation and parental involvement then I am all for school vouchers. Public schools play the same game as private schools by publishing test scores and basically comparing schools in a competitive manner. If public education is the best thing going then all public schools in theory should provide the same educational opportunities. It should not make a difference where you go to school and neighborhood schools could return to places like Wake county. We need to either insure equity and and equal access to quality educational opportunities for all students in all schools or blow the system up and start over. Let's close the public schools and give every student the same amount of money to spend on education. Will that create equal schools? Will poor kids have a better chance to succeed? How much money guarantees a quality education?
ReplyDeleteIn response to Camille's post on Voyager Academy, I responded to anyone who asked my opinion that Voyager was being created "so white students in Treyburn and Hardscrabble would not have to go to middle school with minority students". This may seem like a very strong statement but I have a difficult time trying to understand how students who live in the two most affluent neighborhoods in northern Durham county are being under served and neglected in their educational opportunities when the traditional middle school they would be attending is one of the highest performing and most diverse schools in the district. Furthermore, the school's original location was outside the city limits which discouraged lower income families who depend on public transportation from entering the lottery, once the lottery was complete the board announced that they had acquired a better location in the city that happened to be next door sevaral minority neighborhoods and a public housing project.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, all I know about charter schools comes from what I've heard other people discussing about these schools. Therefore my knowledge of these schools is limited and possibly wrong. So if a friend invited me out to dinner and asked me that question, I would have to be completely honest about what I know and how I know it. I would say from what I heard charter schools are smaller schools that cater to students whose parents think that they will be better served in a smaller school setting. I know that these schools are funded by vouchers given out by the government. I also say that I think these schools sometime offer students a better education because the teacher does not have so many students to teach and can give students more individual time. I would say that I think charter schools do not have as many limitations on them as public schools as far as curriculum instruction is concerned, which I’m not sure is good or bad. I would also say that I have heard that charter schools are much safer because they are smaller and often time students have to wear uniforms cutting back on the amount of student to student teasing. I would include that there are some really well to do charter schools that cater to wealthy children and there are some charter schools that cater to poverty income students who have to have vouchers in order to attend school. As far as the government funding these schools, I would say that I think it is a good idea as long as it is not taking away a significant amount of funding from public schools. After I end the conversation with my friend, I would go to the internet and find out a bit more information on charter schools, so the next time the conversation arises, I will be more prepared (lol).
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with all the other bloggers that feel that charters schools are good because they give parents and students a choice to learn in a preferred environment where they think they will be best suited. I really would like to visit a charter school to see how they operate and how they compare and contrast to public schools to see if there is a big difference in the actual curriculum that is being taught.
ReplyDeleteI worked in a charter school in Draper, Utah before coming to Durham. My experience there was very positive, and in fact, I strive to duplicate many of the things I learned in that school in my own classroom. The growth students showed during their time at this school was amazing, and was not limited to the "gifted" students. In fact, I had two autistic children in my class, who grew by leaps and bounds during their time at this particular school. Their methodologies were research based, and their expectations of staff were beyond anything I have ever experienced. Because of this, I would recommend to anyone that they research charter schools in their areas and make the choice based on what is best for them.
ReplyDeleteWhile I understand that not ALL charter schools are doing good things, I believe that we all deserve a CHOICE about where we send our children to school. I know that there are charter schools out their that are doing things "better" than our public schools (and for everyone that believes these schools are only for the "gifted" or "majority" students, KIPP schools are a great example of charter schools that are doing great things for minority students). If I were a parent, I would want the best education for my students, and I truly believe that there are charter schools out there capable of providing a better education than some of our public schools.
In terms of the voucher/charter school debate, I would have to say that I am not well enough informed, and therefore my opinion should not represent that of all educators.
ReplyDeleteI think it all depends. Like Abbey said, there are some charter schools with an excellent reputation, and then some with a not so good reputation. I think we should carefully evaluate all schools (public/private/charter...)using a critical lens as to what is right for a particular student. All schools should be held accountable for student learning, so long as the support is there so that they can be successful.
Some would argue (and maybe not entirely incorrectly) that the charter and voucher school movement -- i.e., the "school choice" movement -- is a sleuth attempt to undermine public schools and begin to privatize the K-12 education system.
ReplyDeleteWould you support public tax money, in the form of education vouchers, following students to private religious schools? Would you support a wealthy family being able to receive an education voucher to help offset the cost of an expensive ($25,000 per year) private school that they can already afford?
Dr. G
I would tell my friend that I am not a really a fan of charter schools. I would explain it by comparing them to the National Guard (hope I don’t offend any guardsmen/women) but is the National Guard better than the “real” Army? If America was under attack, which would you want to defend the nation, the Army, you know the guys who do more before six am than most folks do all day or the National Guard, this is the same guy who likes to play “Weekend Warrior” once a month but the rest of the time he teaches 7th grade language arts across the hall from you! The public schools are like the Marines; yeah sure they have a few friendly fire casualties and get off mission sometime but bottom line, their sole purpose is to kill and they have been doing it a long time. In the public schools case, their bottom line is education and they too have been doing it a long time.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the issues with public education will not go away. The American education system is not making the grade when it comes to educating ALL students. We have the brightest minds studying and researching the problems and potential solutions. However, we still have not found the quick fix to education where a parent can place their child in a school regardless of race, income, and motivation and the child "perform" academically. We have found some solutions that attempt to address the problems that exist within public schools such as charters and the voucher programs. There are even schools that are completely computer based where there is no teacher in the classroom and students learn everything on the computer at their on pace. These are all very creative and interesting solutions. The question is how successful these creative solutions are when it comes to "educating" students. The answer is that it depends on who you ask and which school you are talking about. There are so many charters schools springing up all over the place with different purposes. The charter school I worked for was inside a jail and the goal was to teach basic skills to prepare them for their next educational journey that could be a GED in prison for some. There was no graduation or EOG that they were expected to pass at the end of the year unless they were released back to a regular outside public school. The point is that not all charter schools have the same purpose or exist for the same populations. Therefore, it is difficult to form an overall opinion of all charter schools based on individual experiences especially with such limited data available on the success of many of the schools. I agree with Justin that it all depends on the charter school we are talking about. There are advantages and disadvantages to any option whether it is public, charter, private, or home school (which I recommend for overbearing parentsJ. Charter schools and vouchers are simply options for parents to navigate through the difficult stage of providing the best education (in their opinion) for their child I think that parents should have the right to have this choice about how their child should be educated. The issue becomes should these choices be funded by public tax money. I think that funding education for the wealthy in the form of vouchers for private education is a bad idea and would further contribute to some our complex societal problems in education and otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI personally would not support public tax money following students to private institutions. I think there is a huge advantage to religous schools, and I think this due to my own religious beliefs. If it is "public" tax money, then I feel it should go to "public" education.
ReplyDeleteSeparation of church and state has been around for a very long time. Should this separation not apply to the government giving tax dollars to religous organizations or religious schools?
"The public schools are like the Marines; yeah sure they have a few friendly fire casualties and get off mission sometime but bottom line, their sole purpose is to kill and they have been doing it a long time."
ReplyDeleteReally Ryan? I would argue that the reason that the school choice movement even exists is that public schools have done such a good job of "killing" education. But what do I know; I did go through public school, which means my opinion probably should not even be taken seriously:).
In response to Dr. G's last question, how do you decide the dollar amounts of the vouchers? How do you decide the income level that would require a voucher? What's wrong with helping people who choose to use their voucher for a parochial school. According to one of the studies in tomorrow's readings, parochial schools out performed public schools on 4th and 8th grade tests( Catholic and Lutheran schools). If the school is effective in improving and/or maintaining high student achievement then let's help all kids who want to attend those schools do so.
ReplyDeleteTwo comments...first, I am absolutely, unequivocally, opposed to public money going to private schools. I am also opposed to providing transportation to charter or magnet schools. If you don't want your child to attend the neighborhood school, fine, but you need to figure out how to get them there and not at taxpayer expense.
ReplyDelete2nd, I've subbed quite a bit at Kestral Heights Charter (and did my bookkeeper interview there - so I understand the funding a little better, now - it's not vouchers, they get a per student funding formula similar to the regular public schools).
They also have the same EOC requirements that every other public school has and the non-discriminatory regulations. I would say they have a higher number of identified EC kids, in part because parents didn't like the way their kids were served in the 'public schools'. The biggest difference is that they have a greater level of parent involvement. The parents are already invested in that they have to get their kids to and from school. Ironically (or not surprisingly), the kids they have the most problems with are the ones who show up on the city bus and whose parents have little contact with the school.
On the whole, the kids are respectful, responsive and less time is spent on discipline. Academic expectations are high and the kids are engaged. As a sub I actually had lesson plans to teach, instead of movies and worksheets. The drawback is lower pay but a much less stressful day.
Amatullah, look at charter schools like the Blackwater of education. Not saying they can't get the job done...they can! This is probably because they have stolen some of the best and brightest from the public schools by tempting them with promises of teacher empowerment and small learning communities, may be even higher pay and better working conditions...who knows. But if public schools wanted to they could do the same things, better even because nobody could ever compete with their resources.
ReplyDeleteI love the idea of competition. It does not scare me as a public educator to have people think about choices. But I do think that the voucher idea is a bad idea because whenever you throw around money, there will be corruption. Just like absolute power corrupts absolutely, money corrupts education and the kids end up losing.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I would also inform my friend that charter schools were created as an innovative alternative to the public education system and despite there being little evidence that support that charter schools are any more innovative than public ones, charter schools can fill a void in an area where the public schools are tragically underperforming or plagued with poor leadership. People should have the right to educate their children however they want but they shouldn’t get a voucher either. And I don’t want hear about where your tax dollars are going toward an education you don’t want…I don’t even have kids and they still take money from my check for education. The education of the youth is, as cheesy as it sounds an investment into this country’s future; therefore, everybody pays for it. So everybody pays for the education for the masses and if that’s not good enough, and it may not be, then you may need to fork over a little more money to kick out for the charter school but no money back.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of Dr. G's last comments, I think that if there were to be a voucher movement, then the amount of the voucher should somehow be dependent on the parent's income if they are going to an expensive private school.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I was thinking about what makes some charter schools effective? Are the systems that are in place in charter schools vastly different from those in public schools? I wonder if the success of charter schools is driven more by smaller school sizes as opposed to some reform initiative that the school is running under.
In terms of the funding that is taken away from public schools if there are vouchers. How does this work. Is it straight up $$ taken from a public school if a student chooses to go to a charter or private school with a voucher, or is it something that affects the allotment. If it affects allotments, then the impact on the public school may be reduced. Losing one child is unlikely to drastically affect allotments, however a dollar loss of around $6,000 I would imagine would have significant impact.
In response to Dr. G’s question, I think that if the parents wanted to use their voucher money for a religious school then that’s their choice. These parents are opting not to put their children in public schools. They pay taxes so let them have their education voucher! I have the same opinion about the wealthy families. They should have the option to use the education voucher to offset their cost to an expensive private school. I think families rich, poor, or middle class should have a choice. They are opting not to put their children in public schools. Nevertheless, these people are paying their taxes! (Hopefully!!!)
ReplyDeleteI believe that charter schools are a good thing. During my undergraduate, I did volunteer work for a charter school, and everything that I saw was very positive. A friend of mine also worked at Endeavor Charter School in Wake County, and everything that she told me was amazing…the things that they have the opportunity to do with their children, it’s just unreal. One of the founders of the school was a friend of hers, too, and she was in on starting the school. Their mission and vision statements are right on to what they provide to those children. Their scores are phenomenal, and the parents are happy. They do their enrollment strictly by the lottery—if there are teachers’ kids that applied and didn’t get in, then too bad, there were not any exceptions. It’s actually an amazing learning environment for those children.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tom when he said that having a choice is good. Amatullah is right when she says the problems in education are not going away. Therefore, it is healthy to give parents a choice.
If the schools surrounding where you live are underperforming, why should we expect parents to send their students to these schools? If parents want the choice of sending their child to a private school, yes they should get the $6,000 to apply towards the tuition, regardless if they can afford it or not. Each child is guaranteed a public education, and if their parents choose a different route then they should be awarded the money that goes with it.
In the grand scheme of things, I do not believe that charter schools or vouchers are trying to undermine the public schools. I believe that charter schools offer something that public schools do not have the opportunity to do. Once again, it all goes back to choice. If you think you can get your child a better education somewhere else, you are going to do whatever you can to provide that for them.
Benjy, I do not follow you when you say that "there will be corruption." What does that have to do with school vouchers? I understand your point on competition, but can you explain your corruption theory?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wral.com/news/local/video/6304879/
ReplyDeleteBy the way if anyone wants to see what a charter school looks like here is a link to the video that aired on wral the other day. I interviewed with these guys a couple of years ago and turned down a job there because I did not want to drive that far to teach. I imagine that we all could do some amazing things with students who have applied to go there, have an average of 19 students in a classroom and have quite a large budget to purchase things with. I must tell you that I turned down the job offer not just because of the drive but they talked about the school like it was a cult. Maybe if it was closer I could speak a little more from a first hand experience but I have to agree with some of the other comments. Stealing the best and brightest students in North Carolina should not be something to brag about. It is basically a mini-college campus.
The corruption idea is the fact that with money comes an extra set of problems that could take away from others. I could forsee group homes saying that they do not like their base school and asking for the voucher money to send their kids to private school and then find the easiest, cheapest private school to skate the system. I am telling you as sure as I can, vouchers would screw up due to some of the people's selfish nature. If they were truly trying to get the best education then I would say that it might work but government money and taxes used to make choices is a bad idea. If you want to make the choice go for it, just don't make me pay for your choice. There is definitely a trade off with private schools, charter schools and homeschooling options. I have no problem with the choice. But as I said before, I don't want to pay for your choice. That is the main idea behind my corruption comment.
ReplyDeleteI would tell my friend that I don’t have much knowledge of charter schools. The few that I do know about do not have good reputations, which may be because of bad new traveling faster than good news. As for the vouchers, I do not like the idea that anyone can receive them. One should not be able to receive a voucher just because they are not pleased with the school they have been assigned. There should be a certain criteria that must be met before receiving a voucher, such as the student’s academic achievement. Those students that fail to pass the EOG/EOC should be allowed to receive the vouchers. The students that pass the EOG/EOC should not be able to receive vouchers, because they have achieved the state’s academic standards. Why should tax payer money pay for a student to attend a private or religious school, when the student is achieving academic success in public school? Now if the public school fails to educate the student in a way that they are able to pass the EOG/EOC, then pay for them to go else where. There would be one catch that if the student did not pass the EOG/EOC they would not be able to continue to receive the voucher. With all that said, I am assuming that vouchers are not issued out only once.
ReplyDeleteTo answer Dr. Graham's question, no I would not support vouchers for religious schools or children of wealthy people. I think vouchers should only be given to low income families or families who make under 20,000 a year. Even then, there should be a limit to how many full scholarship vouchers are awarded. All other people who are able to pay for charter schools should pay full price or at least a prencentage of the tuition as they have the means to do so. Also alternative education is a choice not a must have, therefore if you want the best, you have to pay for the best. However, you also have to make things fair and equitable, therefore, you have to create funding for some of the less fortunate.
ReplyDeleteBenjy, it’s not like they issue you a check for $6,000. They money goes directly to the school, and you don’t get to keep what you do not use for tuition. (And, if you can find a private school that offers tuition for LESS than $6,000 a year, let me know.)
ReplyDeleteAnd, how can you NOT be paying for people's choice? I pay for education through taxes, and I don't have children. Inadvertently, I am paying for people's choice to provide that education for their children. How does that affect you directly?
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ReplyDeleteI guess I understand and somewhat appreciate the point of Karen's post: if parents pay taxes at least let them have the money they pay to put toward their child's private education.
ReplyDeleteSomebody also mentioned that the size of the voucher should be dependent upon family income: that could work.
I think it was in the debate article that maybe there could be a tax break for parents who send their children to private schools, another good idea. I know I look forward to the tax-break I get by giving UNC-Chapel Hill ~5 G's a year.
Choice is relevant and understandable, especially for a parent who does not want to send their child to the "struggling" school. From my experience, parents making that choice means financial sacrifices for their family, but I still feel it shouldn't necessarily place the financial burden on the taxpayer.
The charter school movement could potentially impact NC in a large way. NC's chances of earning Race to the Top money could be hampered by the state's current restrictions. The state has a limit on approved charters (100) and district limits (maximum of 5 per district). Because of the current state of education, the federal government is encouraging states to attempt new education models (charter schools in some cases). NC's stance on charter schools may negatively impact all students.
ReplyDeleteWith clarification of the voucher system, my biggest questions becomes, do vouchers equalize education to ensure that all students have the high quality education that they deserve. Should a school be labeled as a "low performing school," the school would be required to offer vouchers. Of the student body, which families would be informed of the vouchers and would know how to apply and make the best choices regarding vouchers. My fear with vouchers is that the vouchers will allow already entitled students, those more likely to succeed despite a challenging school, to have even more opportunities. I do not mean to imply that parents of non proficient students are not able to take advantage of a voucher system. However, I do worry that a low performing school would "voucher out" all but the students who need a better school more than the others. I absolutely believe that a voucher system should be encouraged as it allows under served students a change at an education that they are not getting. However, I am not sure how the system can ensure that the students most in need of a "new school" are able to take advantage of the voucher system. Without the students who are currently being failed being able to take advantage of the voucher system, I believe that other students will leave a low performing school leaving it worse off than before, with the students most in need of help being left without any additional supports or a new school.
ReplyDeleteA parent’s socioeconomic status should not be considered when issuing out vouchers only if public education was tried first and the student did not achieve academic success. Yes they are paying there taxes but we all are paying taxes and a percentage of my money is going towards that wealthy family child’s public education as well. So if the wealthy family decides to never send their child to public school, then they should pay for it without any governmental assistance.
ReplyDelete(Karen) It is also like if I decided to never drive on the highway. Should I receive a voucher to off set the cost of other means of transportation not using the highway since I am no longer driving? I am paying my taxes.
(Justin) A dollar loss of $6,000 would not be that significant. It is actually less than 1% of the Wake Co. Schools budget. In 2004-2005 Wake Co. Schools budget was over 1 billion dollars. The per pupil budget was $7,538.00 during the 04-05 school year. If you multiply that by 135,000 students you would get over a billion dollar.
(Briana) Every student in a low performing school is not low performing. I would not allow all of the students the opportunity to receive the voucher. Only the families of students that are low performing (did not pass EOG/EOC) would be able to receive the vouchers. That would address your fear of the entitled students receiving more opportunities. What do you think about that?
ReplyDeleteI think that a parent should be able to choose where their child will get the best education. If that means using a voucher to get them into a private religious school, then so be it. Parents and students should not be punished for the fact that many public schools aren't doing an adequate job of schooling our children. I know, and understand, that parents pulling "entitled" or "gifted" students from low performing schools could be problematic. The question remains, if I were a parent, and my student was attending a low performing school, what would I want for my son or daughter? I'd want them to have the best education possible. Vouchers and charter schools give parents other options.
ReplyDeleteBriana, you wrote, "However, I do worry that a low performing school would "voucher out" all but the students who need a better school more than the others." I agree with you...this is a discussion I've had with colleagues. But I almost wonder if there could be a positive spin on that? (totally thinking out of the box here...). Perhaps a smaller student to teacher ratio and a focus on those students that need the most help would allow those schools to rid themselves of that low performing status? I know this is not likely, but if I were a leader of a school in such a situation, I know I'd start to think of ways we could better serve our smaller school population and meet their more specific needs.
Where is the equity in education? I believe in choice, but, I am leaning towards the idea that voucher schools may be just another segretation tactic of the haves and the have-nots. I think I would have to tell my friend to research and compare the options.
ReplyDeleteRick said
ReplyDeleteSimliar to James worland Briana, I am not that astute in the world of vouchers and charter school. However, I do believe that everyone is entitled to freedom of choice, but to what and/or to whom's expense. Unfortunately, competiton produces strange and difference agendas, which academic acheivement is done as an attempt to appease the fed rather than the parents.
I would say that I support “choice.” I think that vouchers and charter schools are a good thing. I too feel that if the public school is not meeting the educational needs of my children then I should have a choice as to where they will attend school to receive the best education.
ReplyDeleteI am not very knowledgeable about how the voucher system works but I have heard some things about charter schools and how they may or may not have met the community’s expectations. Most of what I have heard has been positive for charter schools.
I personally would not support public funds in the form of education vouchers following students to private religious schools. To me that is a whole separation of church and state issue and I don't want to get anywhere near that debate.
ReplyDeleteAs for a wealthy family receiving a voucher to send their kid to a private school that they can already afford...I'm not a fan of that either. I feel that their should be a tier system based on financial need to determine what amount, up to $5,000 a family would receive.
I like Lamont's comment about kids at low performing schools that actually make the grade academically NOT receiving a voucher. That seems equitable to me.
Not sure I agree with public tax money being used to fund private religious schools. As Michael stated, separation of church and state has been around for a long time. As far as who receives an education voucher, I think anyone who qualifies for the voucher should receive it regardless of “wealth or lack of wealth” status.
ReplyDeleteI would tell them that charter schools are good for some kids, but for others they are not. That is with everything in life, it's good for somebody, but for somebody else it's not.
ReplyDeleteTo add to my previous comment I am for "Choice." Every child is different as are adults. I think the problem with eucation is that we are trying to meet the needs of every child with a system that has shown an excess amount of flaws. If the status quo doesn't work, allow them to do something else.
ReplyDeleteI would support public voucher money going to whatever school the parents choose for their child, whether religious, private, etc. I say this especially since many public schools just have not been getting the job done for some kids. For instance, many students in Halifax county (under DPI's watch and on Judge Manning's List) have had he choice to come to Warren county schools since halifax was low performing and facing state take over. In reality, Warren county schools and other county systems in the area don't seem far from the same situation and parents need choice other than the public schools. Again, i say it's all about choice...what works best for the specific kid.
ReplyDeleteRick
ReplyDeleteCharter schools and vouchers are symptomatic of our country's demeanor and personality. We (America)were founded on the premise of freedom of choice, and charter schools and vouchers are the lineage of that freedom performed by our forfathers centuries ago. One point that is often missed is when you make a choice for one thing, you ultimately diminish another. So, where there is choice, there is also deprivation. The establishment of charter schools and vouchers will turn a choice into a derprivation, with regards to our public school system.
Rick,
ReplyDeleteTo reiterate what I stated before, where 's there choice, there's sacrifice. The investment of one thing is the canceling of something else.